On Saturday, Oct. 13, the Campus interviewed His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism before his morning lecture at the College. No other media outlets were granted access to the Dalai Lama during his visit to the College. A transcript of the interview in its entirety can be found below, while you can also listen to a recording of the interview.
Middlebury Campus (MC): Good morning. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me this morning and thank you for coming here to Middlebury. We’re honored to have you here. Yesterday you talked a lot about individual ethical discipline and mindfulness. We are a college community. Do you have any experience with communal ethical discipline, and how can we as a college community be mindful?
His Holiness the Dalai Lama (HHDL): Well logically the whole community, all members of the community develop self-restraint … that whole community [is] very peaceful, very happy. If one person creates some trouble then the whole community [laughs] eventually creates some uneasiness. So therefore regarding unity, or harmony or a peaceful community, the thing is each individual has a responsibility. The individual, you see, develops that kind of strong conviction and compassion … then one hundred percent together.
My impression, you see, [that] some say good things may come from outside, or from some other. You yourself must remain uncommitted. I think that’s a mistake. [speaks in Tibetan]
Geshe Thupten Jinpa (Translator): When you throw a stone you see the ripples spreading …
HHDL: So first start from that stone and go that way.
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MC: Recently you have been talking a lot about science and mindfulness in science. Where did that come from? Why are you interested in this now?
HHDL: Since my childhood, I’ve had some interest in science. Our training very much encourages investigation, not belief, not [to] act so easily. So, therefore, I feel quite similar to scientists. Scientists always [have an] open mind, with skepticism, then start the investigation. Actually, about 40 years ago, I developed a strong desire to talk with scientists, for dialogue. Then, I expressed this wish to an American, a lady, who was actually Buddhist. She told me, “Be careful. Science is killer of religion!” [laughs]
Then I thought, no. The positive way is investigation. So therefore, in true investigation, we are trying to find reality. Reality — there are many levels. Scientific research [is] actually trying to find reality. Our training is like that — not to accept on the basis of appearances, but to penetrate reality.
[In] a series of discussion with scientists, at the beginning … not many, perhaps I think 15-20 scientists, each introduce themselves. One scientist say[s], “I am defender of science forever! Because of the critical view, I have to defend.” And then say, “There is no mind. Mind is just vibration of brain, or something like that.” Very strong, quite [a] radical scientist.
My one curiosity of that sort of view … is the experience. Obviously there is some change in our change in our physical condition, then different feelings. That’s obvious. But sometimes … [if you] relax, then, some thought come, some memory come[s]. Some change in our feeling. So first some change in physical level, then change mind. Something happens in the mental level, then it affects physical. So I mentioned this to some doctors, and their response is, “Well, it looks like that, but should not be.” [laughs]
The last 30 years, out of a series of discussions of scientists — and they also carried [out] some experiments — now they accept mental betterment, something very, very important for our family, for our society. Therefore many of them now they say they feel that taking care of the brain alone [is] not sufficient, not adequate. There must be some attention about the mind.
Not talking about religion or heaven or hell or next life — simply in order to create healthy society, healthy family, healthy individual, physical. We have to take some sort of care about emotions. So, that’s the last 40, 50 years of development like that.
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MC: As you have worked to educate yourself on science, in that process of education what do you feel are the best tools for learning spiritually, and also for students here at Middlebury?
HHDL: I think someone — a president or pope — expressed faith and reason must go together. That’s very wise. Sometimes people just take faith [with] no sort of regiment of reason. That, I think, [is] a little bit narrow. I think, again, faith … brings inner strength, hope and inner peace. So the explanation about faith itself is sometimes mysterious in a way [laughs] but — doesn’t matter. But some extent of background of reason can apply. So anyway, as I already emphasized, education[al] institutions must pay some attention about education of warm-heartedness. Compassion, sense of caring about others, sense of concern for others human being, this must come voluntarily. You cannot do that by force. [With] any sort of volunteers, unless you see the values — volunteers will not come. In any case, educate the value of compassion for physical health.
Sometimes I see the young girl [who] spends a lot of money on cosmetics. External beauty — very important, no question. But at the same time, inner beauty, in the long run is more crucial, isn’t it? Inner beauty comes from sense of well-being. If that is there, then even though the face may not be so beautiful [laughs] but, everybody loves that person, isn’t it? [laughs]
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MC: So how can our institution cultivate that inner beauty within our students?
HHDL: So I think experimentation on the basis of scientific findings, number one. Then also our concept of the sense of a person [finds] those people [who are] more open-minded, more warm-hearted, more warm-hearted mind, much happier! And finds more friends …
Some who is always negative, or very rough, then I notice some small bird — they have the ability to make distinctions of the sound of footsteps — someone who is feeding them, they’ll come from a distance … a negative sound comes, and [the bird] is immediately alert. Therefore, a more warm-hearted mind, immediately creates some sort of positive, happy, joyful atmosphere, isn’t it? The other people approach [the bird], also feeding — much happier.
I see one person sit in a room with lots of shouting and crying and one close friend enters the door, immediately [laughs] … On the other hand, you see very peaceful, joyful — then I think everybody is willing to join and share that happy atmosphere. So that’s common sense.
Anger, hatred, suspicion and also pretense, hypocrisy — these create more suspicion, more distrust. Suppose [a person] wants to show nice to others [by pretending], but actually, other people are not that foolish. They’re smart — they’ll know [if] this guy is sincere or not. There’s some hypocrisy there, not genuine feeling. I think even animals, to some extent, they also know if others are sincere or not.
Then common experience — where everybody is surround by affections, particularly when we are young. Particularly mother’s affection is truly important. That experience remains whole life. I’m always telling people I myself believe I have some amount of compassion that I think first I learned from my mother — very compassionate, very remarkable person. On the other hand, when I was very young, my mother [was] always beating or scolding me — perhaps today even, recognized as Dalai Lama, 14th Dalai Lama — I think for 14th Dalai Lama may be a little different! [laughs] Like that?
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MC: I would say so. Many college students are turning away from faith, from organized religion. Should we be concerned about that?
HHDL: I think that is individual business. We can not impose faith. I think firstly, the people who believe a certain faith, I think we ourselves should make good examples to others. Then, as I mentioned earlier, once they see they see the owners of the quality …
For example, in my own case, when I saw Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King and also Thomas Merton, the Trappist monk, when I saw and met these people [and had] discussion and also observed their life story, then I developed genuine admiration about Christianity. Their faith brought such reward for me personally.
So I think a religious person, himself or herself, maybe a little bit stupid [laughs] to tell other people, “this is important.”
An Indian scholar, one time he mentioned some flower. First, the flower itself should have that good smell. Then that flower, put in our pocket or put on table, then the whole area really gets some positive smell. So first the smell must have that; so similarly, a religious person, himself or herself, should practice sincerely what they believe. Particularly, when passing through a difficult period, they must show their inner strength — honesty, truthfulness — that’s very important.
I think, today, unlike ancient time — ancient time, there [was] not much choice — now, you see, the information on various sorts of religions and various sort of fields and various subjects, therefore there are plenty of things to choose. So then, unless, you see, develops some kind of attraction …
I think a material thing — empathizing through that way — bring some sort of customer. [laughs] Now, a spiritual inner thing, you see, you can empathize that way, but through physical action, through mental action must show the inner value to others.
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MC: Your teachings talk a lot about ending suffering. I’m wondering, is the goal just that end, or is there a creation of a positive value from that?
Now, usually my talk — without touching Buddhism — simply secular ethics. Another [one] of my commitments is promotion of religious harmony. So that mainly [is] touching the practice of love, compassion, forgiveness — these things [are] common practice, all religious traditions. The difference is philosophy. So I think, I have found these people, these community, their own tradition, their own religious faith — it is much safer, it is much better to keep their own traditional religion. Otherwise, change in religion sometimes create — mentally or emotionally — some confusion …
In the meantime, it is useful to know more about similarities or different philosophical views of other traditions — that helps to enrich your own practice and then secondly, that way you can [have] some mutual respect to other religion. If you remain isolated, without much contact, then the reality [is] you can’t remain that way … Big cities, all over America, if you look around the country, or community, where there are many Asians among them, many Buddhists, there are many Hindus — so already some of the cities [have] already become multi-religious communities. So they are knowing more about other traditions. Helpful, this is, to keep positive spirit as a multi-religious community.
So, then, only to Buddhist audiences, then I explain Buddhism philosophers views. Of course, I think these people, quite familiar I think with the Buddhist teaching — Four Noble Truths, so suffering and causes of suffering and the cessation of suffering and the way to achieve that. That is, we need a lot of investigation, a lot of discussions. [laughs]
I usually tell people, also I feel [that a] compassionate world — no longer violence, harmony of society based on compassionate feeling — this I consider the global level of salvation. Not in the next life, but this life. A happy world — no danger, no fear — that philosophy, when we reach that level, that’s salvation. And then, end comes, we leave this body happily. [laughs]
[to security guard] What do you think? Do you agree?
Security Guard: It’s a good policy.
[laughter]
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MC: As a college, how can we work towards creating that global salvation?
HHDL: I always emphasize the younger generation — college students — you are the generation of the 21st century. So my generation, our hope [is] on you. Now our generation, the generation of the 20th century, as a matter of fact, I think we have a lot of problems, which [we] should solve by coming generation. So we create these problems, and then let them solve that situation! [laughs] So now you — you have to solve that, you have to take that [this] big mission — not an individualistic way.
The best way to get maximum happiness for individuals is happy community, happy humanity — then you get maximum benefit …
This is a human world. So wherever we go, I think we should have a human feeling, a human spirit. I think when we’re passing through a difficult period —
So say, one boat is destroyed or damaged and then reach one island where there are no other people — no man’s land. Imagine you meet one other person there — not important what religious faith, what nationality, what color, so long as one human being — then the natural tendency, the human tendency [is] to approach that person. So that’s the human spirit. I think we should create that in the world. Everywhere we see these people, “Ah! Human brother there.”
Sometimes human brother creates more sense of suspicion, so one person there, you meet, you think, “Oh, what can he do?” [laughs] I think that we can change that type of attitude if we promote real sense of human brother and sisterhood. And with that, the real sense of community. And with honesty, a sense of concern of others’ well-being. I think we can do it.
I think college students — perhaps I think, when they enter the area, perhaps they may feel, this is my home, this is safe … As soon as enter here, feel happy. I think that kind of spirit you can extend. I think we can do it. I may not see, in my lifetime, in the next 20 years, perhaps, 30 years, but you, this young student, you have the responsibility and you have the opportunity to see this happy world. So think this way. So make effort, tirelessly.
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MC: Thank you so much for your time.
HHDL: Actually, we have to think, work, in new ways. Otherwise, there’s no other choice, is it?
